akelas
Senior Member
Madrid
Spanish, from Spain
- Aug 12, 2021
- #1
Hello,
When bow means:
1 bow (weapon, bow and arrow) is it pronounced /bou/?
2 bow (front part of ship) is it pronounced /bau/?
3 bow (verb, incline your head and torso to show respect) pronounced /bou/?
Thank you.
Myridon
Senior Member
Texas
English - US
- Aug 12, 2021
- #2
Yes, you can see this in the dictionary.
bow - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
bow1 /baʊ/
...
bow2 /boʊ/
...
bow3 /baʊ/
...
akelas
Senior Member
Madrid
Spanish, from Spain
- Aug 12, 2021
- #3
Hello, and thanks Myridon.
The dictionary makes it a bit confusing, and your answer confuses me even more...
Are you sure the weapon, as in bow and arrow is pronounced /bau/?
kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Aug 12, 2021
- #4
It doesn't say that in that definition.
bow 2 /boʊ/
n.
[countable]
a strong, flexible strip of wood or other material, bent by a string stretched between its ends and used for shooting arrows:
akelas
Senior Member
Madrid
Spanish, from Spain
- Aug 12, 2021
- #5
Hello.
Scrolling down the definitions that Myridon sent me, I read "bow" either for front part of a ship and inclination/bending slightly forward to show respect, pronounced either as:
/bou/ and /bau/
The only thing clear is "bow" the ancient weapon, pronounced as /bou/
E
Edinburgher
Senior Member
Scotland
German/English bilingual
- Aug 12, 2021
- #6
The dictionary pronunciations in the Random House
Learner'ssection are correct. That's at the top of the page. Those in the Random House
Unabridgedsection, in the middle of the page, are misleading, as they seem to be using a different phonetic alphabet, which uses "ou" to represent the /au/ sound. The Collins pronunciations, further down still, are also correct.
The respectful leaning is pronounced the same as the front of a ship, with /a/. The weapon is pronounced with /o/.
akelas
Senior Member
Madrid
Spanish, from Spain
- Aug 12, 2021
- #7
Thank you Edinburgher
Keith Bradford
Senior Member
Brittany, NW France
English (Midlands UK)
- Aug 12, 2021
- #8
And the prettily tied ribbon is pronounced with /o/ too, and so is the thing you play a violin with.
kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Aug 12, 2021
- #9
You have to be careful not to mix pronunciation notations. There are two that are commonly used in U.S. dictionaries. IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) is used by some, but there is a long-standing history of using a traditional one that has no connection to the IPA. When you see slashes, /boʊ/, that's an indication that it is IPA. You'll also see symbols that aren't standard letters. This, ʊ, and this, u, are not the same.
Below are the pronunciations of those words in the other notation. Notice there are no slashes and it uses standard letters, sometimes with an extra symbol added. You can't use IPA rules with that system. They aren't related.
(bō) -> used with an arrow, tied on a gift
(bou) -> bend low, front of a ship
I don't think the parentheses are even part of the system. They are just added in the dictionary to indicate it's a pronunciation note, not part of the word or definition.
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Rover_KE
Senior Member
Northwest England - near Blackburn, Lancashire
British English
- Aug 12, 2021
- #10
For the benefit of those, like me, who don't use phonetic symbols,
the bow with an arrow and tied on a gift rhymes with go, and the other rhymes with cow.
akelas
Senior Member
Madrid
Spanish, from Spain
- Aug 12, 2021
- #11
Thank you kentix.
I am fairly familiar with the IPA. When you write "This, ʊ, and this, u, are not the same" I think I know the difference.
/ʊ/ as in foot, bush, good, look, could or shoud...
and this /u/ sometimes portrayed as /u:/ as in suit, food, moon or room...
kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Aug 12, 2021
- #12
Even more than that. Both of those are IPA symbols as you are using them.
The other system is not IPA. Letters are assigned pronunciations in a different way. ʊ does not exist in that system. That notation system only uses standard letter forms and the schwa symbol , ə, as far as I know. One reason IPA is used for English is because there are more distinct sounds in English than there are distinct letters. IPA deals with that by inventing new symbols, one for each sound. The traditional notation deals with that by adding special symbols to the standard letters when necessary to indicate different sounds.
bō -> the line over the o indicates it's a "long o" in the traditional naming system, meaning the sound has the same sound as the name of the letter, meaning it rhymes with go, so, and no.
bop -> there is no symbol over the o so it is pronounced as a "short o". It is the same o sound as in cop, not and spot.
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E
Edinburgher
Senior Member
Scotland
German/English bilingual
- Aug 12, 2021
- #13
Apparently the 'ou' notation indicates the sound that those two letters make in words like "out" and "sound". It's very confusing, especially since they don't make that sound in words like "could" and "should", not to mention "cough", "rough", or "shoulder".
(cross-edited)
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Myridon
Senior Member
Texas
English - US
- Aug 12, 2021
- #14
Edinburgher said:
Apparently the 'ou' notation indicates the sound that those two letters make in words like "out" and "sound". It's very confusing, especially since they don't make that sound in words like "could" and "should", or even "shoulder".
"(ou)" = the dictionary's pronunciation symbols not letters just like "/squiggle1sqiggle2/" = IPA symbols not letters.
kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Aug 12, 2021
- #15
Think of out, ouch, oust.
You would say "ou as in out", not "ou as in could". That would be "c as in could".
E
Edinburgher
Senior Member
Scotland
German/English bilingual
- Aug 12, 2021
- #16
Oh, so you want the example words to
begin with the letters, do you?
Like "ought" and "ouzel"?
kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Aug 12, 2021
- #17
It's better, if not perfect.
The true answer, of course, is it means whatever is defined in that notation system.
Many of those IPA symbols don't "mean" anything either until someone tells you what they mean. They're just crazy made-up symbols. Any notation system, by definition, is created to represent longer things with shorter things. The shorter things usually need an explanation for full understanding.
akelas
Senior Member
Madrid
Spanish, from Spain
- Aug 13, 2021
- #18
Thank you all.
Kentix, let me just say that for me, a Spanish who had to learn English from scratch and on my own, there is nothing as useful as the IPA system. Despite not being the real letters, it's a made up code that depicts and conveys all the possible sounds in English. Even subtle sounds as the dark l, depicted like this /ł/, (that not all dictionaries use) as in the word "little" the first /l/ is different than the last dark /ł/
little /ˈlɪtəł/
Needless to say, native English speakers don't need the IPA at all, unless they are language teachers or study linguistics. But for learners of English, I consider it extremely useful. Despite this, many students flat out refuse to learn the IPA, it is complex and takes time to familiarize with, and they'd be like ".. as if it wasn't enough learning a new language now you ask me to study an entire new alphabet that looks like Cyrillic??!!"
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kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Aug 13, 2021
- #19
Yes, I never encountered IPA in school. But then, we rarely if ever discussed pronunciation there because you learn how to pronounce things at home from everyday conversation since age 2. They don't teach you that at school except for some long, difficult words. And that is mostly figuring out which syllables are stressed. And that's mostly done by saying the words after someone says them the right way. You don't write them or read them to learn pronunciation.
Most of the regular words in the dictionary probably don't even need a pronunciation guide for native speakers. They know all that already. It's the occasional, somewhat uncommon word you might look up to check the pronunciation. And in that situation, the traditional notation does the job. If I want to know whether the e in syncope is silent or pronounced, this tells me just fine: sing′kə pē′ It is pronounced and it's a long e. (I don't even care about the rest of the word. That part is obvious.)
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